Hacker's Arsenal - The Cutting Edge of Hacking

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==------------------== The PC Hacking FAQ ==------------------== Version 2.0 7/10/96 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Written By Olcay Cirit, <olcay@libtech.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: The author of this text disclaims all liability whatsoever regarding the use and/or misuse of the techniques outlined here or any damages incurred directly or indirectly thereof. Table of Contents -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- X. Introduction 1. Hardware and Firmware a. The BIOS Passwords Resetting the CMOS b. Floppy Locks Picking Them Buying them c. Last Resorts Hard Disk Extraction 2. DOS, Windows, and Netware a. Getting access to DOS Boot from a floppy disk Bypass startup files Bypass DriveSpace Break out of Autoexec.bat b. Getting to DOS from Windows Password Protection Windows Login Third-Party Passwords Screensavers Windows-Based Security DOS Through OLE DOS Using Write DOS Using Word DOS through MODE DOS through Windows Login c. Getting Past Netware Common Account Names Resetting Netware 3. Building a SECURE system a. Understanding the Issues Potential "Hackers" Physical Security Software Security Passwords ---------------------------------------------------------------- X. Introduction This FAQ describes how to break-in to a PC (IBM-Compatible) from the outside in, and how to bypass some common software-based security measures. The last section details how to secure your PC against most of such attacks. If you would like to receive updates to this FAQ as soon as they come out, send me a message (olcay@libtech.com) and ask to be added to the mailing list. Contributors to this FAQ: KORO the Great ksahin@scruznet.com Neil Chou Neil_Chou@ilanet.org John Lundgren jlundgre@deltanet.com Bob rsh@inforamp.net Scorpion favata@epix.net Special Thanks to those really cool Netware Hackers! [Part 2c is based on parts of the Netware Hacking FAQ] Why did I write this? Because there were just so many questions on alt.2600 concerning 'How do I get past XXXXX security?' that I got tired of answering each one individually. I'm also shocked at the fact that some people consider Windows 95/DOS to be secure. Expect to see this FAQ expand as I find more bugs and holes in security software. Many of these solutions assume you have physical access to the PC. For example, you can't extract the hard disk or reset the CMOS over a network, but you can do it if you have access to the computer. This FAQ was NOT written to help computer thieves, but rather to increase awareness of backdoors and inefficiencies in security programs. Another thing is 'the doofus factor': If you should accidentally lock yourself out of your computer, you might find this FAQ to be a great help. I do *not* condone screwing up other people's computers. I would like to note that few of these tricks are new. I simply rounded up everything that I could find and what I could glean from personal experience into an organized file. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to contact me. Have Fun, Olcay Cirit, olcay@libtech.com a.k.a, Deep Thought ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Hardware and Firmware 1a. The BIOS Passwords ========= The BIOS, short for Basic Input/Output Services, is the control program of the PC. It is responsible for starting up your computer, transferring control of the system to the operating system, and for handling other low-level functions, such as disk access. NOTE that the BIOS is not a software program, insofar as it is not purged from memory when you turn off the computer. It's firmware, meaning it is permanently and unchangeably stored in the machine. FLASH BIOS Systems, such as those from Phoenix and AMI, allow you update the BIOS through software, but that's another FAQ. A convenient little feature that most BIOS manufacturers include is a startup password. This prevents access to the system until you enter the correct password. If you can get access to the system after the password has been entered, then there is a software-based BIOS password extractor available from: ftp://oak.oakland.edu/simtel/msdos/sysutil/amis2990.zip Resetting the CMOS ================== There is only one other way to get past the BIOS password. It involves discharging the static memory (CMOS) used to store the password and other system information. Once it is discharged, however, you have to reset all the system settings by hand. ****Follow these steps: 1. Start up the computer a. If the system allows it, enter the Setup Screen (Usually by pressing F1, DEL or INS during the memory check) b. Record all the Setup Information. Double Check. 2. Turn off the computer 3. Remove the casing, and put the computer on the ground in such a way that you can see and access the side of the motherboard with the processor on it. 4. Look at the motherboard a. If you can see a round, disc-like battery, then remove it, and let the computer sit without the battery for 15-30 minutes. Put the battery back in. b. If you have access to the circuit diagrams for the motherboard, look in there for the password or CMOS jumper. Flip it on and off. c. Look for a blue, soldered-in battery with a jumper running off of it. This jumper is for connecting an external battery. Pull it out for 15-30 min. to reset the CMOS. 5. Replace the computer casing. 6. Enter the Setup Screen, and set the Setup Information back to the original values that you (hopefully) recorded. If you were unable to record the setup info, then you'll just have to set it up manually. Some newer Plug & Play BIOSes have an autodetect feature that automatically sets-up the hard disk and other items. Again, I would like to mention that there are numerous password extractors available for free off the internet and on BBSes. Try those first: they are much cleaner and easier-to-use. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1b. Floppy Locks Floppy Locks are generally cheap plastic inserts that hook on to the inside of the drive and lock it, thereby preventing you from using the floppy drive. The locks used are usually those little swivel locks used in computer casings to lock the keyboard. There ARE some very secure locks, with *unique* keys. Such locks are not sold at your local computer store, and must be obtained directly from a factory in Nice, France (didn't get the name, though.). There is a distributor in Canada by the name of "Kappa Micro". If the lock is of the swivel type, you can either pick it, or buy a key (they're all the same). To pick it, you'll need a *thin* flathead screwdriver or a paperclip. To pick the lock, take the paperclip and insert it into the little notch on the inside of the swivel lock. Now, pull to the opposite side of the lock until the swivel is in the unlocked position. If you choose to buy a key, you can: A. Go to your local computer service center, and buy one of these keys. (Very cheap. Often less than $0.75) B. Buy the same brand of floppy lock, and use the key that comes with it. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1c. Last Resorts If you are *REALLY* desperate to access this PC, then the following *might* work: 1. Remove the PC Casing 2. Extract the hard disk (By unscrewing and disconnecting) 3. Transfer it to another computer. (Make sure that it is NOT set as the boot drive.) 4. Start up this computer, and access the hard disk from there. This will probably not work if an encrypted file system is in use. The only way to access such disks is to enter the password, or figure out a way to decrypt it, so if you forget your password, you're hosed. :( ---------------------------------------------------------------- 2. DOS, Windows, and Netware 2a. Getting access to DOS Some systems, are set up to boot directly to some sort of shell/security program, like Windows, or Windows 95. If you want to get access to a DOS prompt, you have some choices: A. Boot from a floppy disk B. Bypass startup files C. Bypassing DriveSpace D. Break out of Autoexec.bat ***Booting from a floppy requires you to create a system disk. You can do this using the DOS command FORMAT A: /S which will format a disk and place system files on it. Also, the Windows format (In File Manager or Explorer) has an option allowing you to create a system floppy. Before you create a system disk, you must determine which floppy drive is used to boot. If the system has both a 1.2MB (5.25") Floppy Drive and a 1.44MB (3.5") Drive, it is likely that the boot drive is the 1.2 MB floppy drive. If the computer has only one floppy drive, it is quite safe to assume that it is the boot drive. However, if you are unsure as to which drive is the boot drive, you can either find out by entering System Setup (as described in section 1) or by observing which floppy drive is read right before the operating system loads. If the system is set to boot only from the hard disk, then you can refer to Section 1 on how to reset the CMOS. Once you have a system disk, you place it in the floppy drive, and turn on or reset the computer. If you have done everything right, the computer will boot from the floppy drive and you will have access to a DOS prompt. This technique, of course, can be prevented through the use of a floppy lock, and by setting the BIOS to boot only from the hard disk. ***Bypassing startup files is quite simple, but only works on versions of DOS 6.0 or better and Windows 95. When you turn on the computer and you see the text: Starting MS-DOS ... or Starting PC-DOS ... or Starting Windows 95 ... Press and hold the SHIFT or F5 key IMMEDIATELY. This will bypass the startup files (CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT) as long as the system administrator has not disabled this feature. Additionally, you can press and hold F8 when the startup text shows to enter the Boot menu. This lets you selectively disable certain commands, or bypass the startup files totally, among other things. ***Bypassing DriveSpace works if compression software such as DriveSpace or DoubleSpace has been installed. If so, when the startup text displays, press and hold Ctrl+F5 or Ctrl+F8. This will load the system without loading the compression driver, which means you can't access the files on disk. HOWEVER, you *can* decompress the disk (DriveSpace only), as long as you have sufficient disk space or enough floppies. If all else fails, you can format it or take it to a Specialized Data Recovery service. They can probably recover the files by moving them to a larger hard disk and decompressing. ***Breaking out of AUTOEXEC.BAT is rather simple also. When the computer starts up and the operating system starts loading, press Ctrl+Break (Or Ctrl+C) repeatedly. When the AUTOEXEC.BAT executes, this will terminate it and drop you to DOS. This will work unless the keyboard has been disabled, or is inactive during initialization (Drivers can be loaded in CONFIG.SYS which temporarily disable the keyboard, and then re-enable it with a command at the end of AUTOEXEC.BAT) ---------------------------------------------------------------- 2b. Getting to DOS from Windows If the above tactics fail, and the machine automatically loads Windows, then you still have a very good chance of getting to DOS. Since Windows by default gives you free access to DOS, there are special security programs made specifically to prevent the user from accessing it, among other things. Most of these programs can be bypassed. Password Protection =================== If when Windows starts up you are presented with yet another password dialog box, analyze the situation: Windows Login ------------- If this is the Primary Windows Login or a Network login, then you can get past it by pressing the Cancel button (No Joke!) to log on as the Default user. This is because the Login information is used primarily for desktop preferences and remote file sharing. Login passwords are stored in .PWL files in the Windows directory. You can reset all accounts to no password by using the .PWL renaming technique described below. The filename of the .PWL file corresponds to the login name of that user. For example, Olcay.pwl contains the encrypted passwords for the account "Olcay". The password protection in Windows 95 uses a much stronger algorithm, but you can still bypass it by *carefully* moving or renaming all .PWL files in the C:\Windows directory. The password filenames are also stored in the SYSTEM.INI file. So, to disable passwords: CD \WINDOWS REN *.PWL *.PW_ Similarly, to re-enable passwords: CD \WINDOWS REN *.PW_ *.PWL Third-Party Password -------------------- If this is a third-party security program, such as the one built-in to After Dark, try pressing Ctrl+Alt+Del when the dialog is presented to you. Most security programs go out of their way to be secure, and Windows 3.1 interprets this as not responding to the system, and thus will allow you close it. Windows 95 pops up a neat little dialog box that lets you terminate any running application. How convenient. :) Once you subvert this, you can prevent it from bothering you again by editing the LOAD= and RUN= sections in C:\WINDOWS\WIN.INI. Screensavers ------------ The password protection built-in to the Windows 3.1 screensavers is extremely weak. You can bypass it by editing CONTROL.INI and searching for the Password field. Delete the junk that appears after the equal sign (This is an encrypted password). To disable Windows 95 passwords, right-click on the desktop and select Properties, choose the Screen Saver tab, and uncheck "Password protected". Windows-Based Security ====================== If Windows starts up, and Program Manager loads, but the File menu is disabled, and access to DOS has been cut off, or some other oppressive security measures are in place, fear not. There are ways around such programs, as shall be explained below: DOS through OLE --------------- OLE, for Object Linking and Embedding, was hailed as a great advance in the Windows Operating System by letting you embed or link objects (this includes Executables) in documents. Scorpion pointed out that Object Packager, which lets you package embedded files with icons, could be used to access DOS (or run any program) from most OLE-enabled applications (Like Write, WordPad, Word, etc.) Based on this information, I found a similar hole that doesn't require Object Packager but still exploits OLE. Both of these work in Windows 3.x and up. Using Object Packager: 1. Start up Write or WordPad 2. Select "Object" from the "Insert" menu a. The location of the Insert Object command may vary. Look Around. 3. Choose Package from the list, and click OK 4. Select "Import" from the "File" menu 5. Enter C:\COMMAND.COM, and select OK 6. Select "Update" Under the "File" menu 7. Go back to your document, and double click on the COMMAND.COM icon Using Insert: 1. Start up Write or WordPad 2. Select "Object" from the "Insert" menu a. Again, the location of the Insert Object command may vary. Look Around. 3. Select "Create from File" 4. Enter C:\COMMAND.COM as the filename 5. Click OK, go back to your document, and double click on the COMMAND.COM icon DOS through Write ----------------- This works by saving COMMAND.COM, the DOS executable, over WINHELP.EXE, the Windows Help program. Unfortunately, this tactic will not work with Windows 95. WordPad, the Word Processing Applet that comes with Windows 95, prevents the user from loading executable files. 1. Go into Accessories, and start up Write (*NOT* NOTEPAD!!) 2. Open C:\COMMAND.COM 3. A dialog box will pop up. Select "NO CONVERSION" 4. Select Save As... 5. Save it as C:\WINDOWS\WINHELP.EXE 6. If it asks if you want to overwrite WINHELP.EXE, choose YES 7. Press F1. Normally, this loads Windows Help, but now it will create a DOS prompt window. DOS through Word ---------------- Microsoft Word versions 6.0 and above have a built-in macro language called WordBasic. This example works by instructing WordBasic to open up a DOS window. Most of the Macro languages of popular applications let you do something similar to this technique. Look around in the online help files. 1. If Microsoft Word is installed, start it up. 2. From the Tools Menu, select Macro. 3. Type in a Macro name, and click "Create" 4. When the Macro window comes up, type in one of the following depending on which Windows you are using: For Windows 3.1: Shell Environ$("COMSPEC") For Windows 95: Shell Environ$("COMMAND") For Windows NT: Shell Environ$("CMD") If all else fails: Shell "C:\COMMAND.COM" 5. Run the macro by pressing the little play button on the macro toolbar. This will launch a DOS prompt. DOS through MODE ---------------- When Windows 95 Shuts Down and shows that dumb graphic, it's really just sitting on top of DOS. You can actually issue DOS commands (although the graphic will cover them) on the system after shutdown!!! A simple way to do this is to type: CLS After the shutdown graphic shows. However, the text will be in 40-column mode, which is hard to read, and incompatible with some programs. If you want to get a nice, clean DOS prompt, you can type: MODE CO80 This will reset the screen display to the normal (80-column, 16 color) DOS display mode. *MOST* Windows Security programs are based on a VxD (Virtual Device), which gives them unprecented power over the system while Windows is running. After shutdown, all Windows-based programs will be unloaded, leaving you free to explore using DOS. For some unknown reason, this doesn't seem to work on some systems. DOS through Windows Login ------------------------- When Windows 95 Starts up, some systems are set up to show a Windows/Network Login dialog box. You can press either Ctrl+Alt+Del Which will let you Shut down the system (and apply the DOS THROUGH MODE technique), End any running tasks, etc. Or: Ctrl+Esc Which, since the taskbar hasn't loaded, will launch Task Manager. From this window you can end tasks, run programs, and shutdown the system (again, the DOS THROUGH MODE technique is applicable here). *All* programs are accessible from the run menu, so you can run C:\COMMAND.COM to get access to DOS. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 2c. Getting past NetWare This section is based on excerpts from the Netware Hacking FAQ. Although Netware has met a general decline in use over the years, I still thought it would be proper to include this. Common Account Names ==================== Novell Netware has the following default accounts: SUPERVISOR, GUEST, and Netware 4.x has ADMIN and USER_TEMPLATE as well. All of these have no password set. Don't be a dummy, password protect SUPERVISOR and ADMIN immediately. Below is a listing of common default and built-in accounts that might be in your best interest to secure. Account Purpose ------- --------------------------------------------------- POST Attaching to a second server for email MAIL PRINT Attaching to a second server for printing LASER HPLASER PRINTER LASERWRITER ROUTER Attaching an email router to the server BACKUP May have password/station restrictions (see below), WANGTEK used for backing up the server to a tape unit attached to the workstation. For complete backups, Supervisor equivalence is required. TEST A test user account for temp use ARCHIVIST Palindrome default account for backup CHEY_ARCHSVR An account for Arcserve to login to the server from from the console for tape backup. Version 5.01g's password was WONDERLAND. GATEWAY Attaching a gateway machine to the server GATE FAX Attaching a dedicated fax modem unit to the network FAXUSER FAXWORKS WINDOWS_PASSTHRU Although not required, per the Microsoft Win95 Resource Kit, Ch. 9 pg. 292 and Ch. 11 pg. 401 you need this for resource sharing without a password. Resetting Netware ================= When NetWare is first installed, the account SUPERVISOR and GUEST are left unprotected, that is, with no password. SUPERVISOR has free run of the system. You can do anything you want. But how can you make the server think it has just been installed without actually reinstalling the server and losing all data on the disk? Simple. You just delete the files that contain the security system! In Netware 2.x, all security information is stored in two files (NET$BIND.SYS and NET$BVAL.SYS). Netware 3.x stores that information in three files (NET$OBJ.SYS, NET$VAL.SYS and NET$PROP.SYS). The all new Netware 4.x system stores all login names and passwords in five different files (PARTITIO.NDS, BLOCK.NDS, ENTRY.NDS, VALUE.NDS and UNINSTAL.NDS [This last file may not be there, don't worry]). Although Novell did a very good job encrypting passwords, they left all directory information easy to find and change if you can access the server's disk directly, using common utilities like Norton's Disk Edit. Using this utility as an example, I'll give a step-by-step procedure to make these files vanish. All you need is a bootable DOS disk, Norton Utilities' Emergency Disk containing the DiskEdit program and some time near the server. 1. Boot the server and go to the DOS prompt. To do this, just let the network boot normally and then use the DOWN and EXIT commands. This procedure does not work on old Netware 2.x servers and in some installations where DOS has been removed from memory. In those cases, you'll have to use a DOS bootable disk. 2. Run Norton's DiskEdit utility from drive A: 3. Select "Tools" in the main menu and then select "Configuration". At the configuration window, uncheck the "Read-Only" checkbox. And be very careful with everything you type after this point. 4. Select "Object" and then "Drive". At the window, select the C: drive and make sure you check the button "physical drive". After that, you'll be looking at your physical disk and you be able to see (and change) everything on it. 5. Select "Tools" and then "Find". Here, you'll enter the name of the file you are trying to find. Use "NET$BIND" for Netware 2, "NET$PROP.SYS" for Netware 3 and "PARTITIO.NDS" for Netware 4. It is possible that you find these strings in a place that is not the Netware directory. If the file names are not all near each other and proportionaly separated by some unreadable codes (at least 32 bytes between them), then you it's not the place we are looking for. In that case, you'll have to keep searching by selecting "Tools" and then "Find again". [In Netware 3.x, you can change all occurences of the bindery files and it should still work okay]) 6. You found the directory and you are ready to change it. Instead of deleting the files, you'll be renaming them. This will avoid problems with the directory structure (like lost FAT chains). Just type "OLD" over the existing "SYS" or "NDS" extension. Be extremely careful and don't change anything else. 7. Select "Tools" and then "Find again". Since Netware store the directory information in two different places, you have to find the other copy and change it the same way. This will again prevent directory structure problems. 8. Exit Norton Disk Edit and boot the server again. If you're running Netware 2 or 3, your server would be already accessible. Just go to any station and log in as user Supervisor. No password will be asked. If you're running Netware 4, there is one last step. 9. Load Netware 4 install utility (just type LOAD INSTALL at the console prompt) and select the options to install the Directory Services. You be prompted for the Admin password while doing this. After that, you may go to any station and log in as user Admin, using the password that you have selected. **NOTE: If Disk Edit is unavailable, any Disk Editing utility with searching capabilities will suffice. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Building a SECURE System 3a. Understanding the Issues Potential "Hackers" =================== After reading this FAQ, you've probably revised your idea of a secure PC quite a bit. Truth be told, IBM didn't design the Personal Computer with security in mind. Back in 1980, their main objective was to get _something_ to market before Apple gobbled up all the market share. After awhile, security programs started to emerge that attempted to bridge this gap. These were quite popular, and were put into use by many companies to prevent 'curious' employees from messing with the computers. However, ways to bypass these security programs were quickly found. As long as computers are designed for convenience, and with humans in mind, this will almost always happen. So, who are potential "Hackers"? The answer is: Anyone. Experienced users especially, but even newbies sometimes find weak spots. This is not to say that everyone *is* a "hacker". (Note that I use quotes because I don't believe in the popular usage of the term "Hacker". The media is out of control: their usage of the word has conflated Computer Gurus with Criminals in the minds of the people.) As always, prevention is the best medicine. The following sections deal with how to secure your system, both through physical and software-based means. Physical Security ================= In the old days, back when computers filled multiple rooms, the security of a system was basically all physical: Locks, security guards, etc. Now the emphasis has shifted away from physical security, and is leaning more towards software-based methods. However, in some cases, a certain degree of physical security is in order. ***If you want to prevent people from resetting your CMOS and accessing the floppy drives, etc. you have to secure the system itself. This can be done by having the computer in a locked room, leaving only the screen and keyboard accessible. There are many products which let you extend the reach of screen and keyboard cables. Even some that let you control many different computers using one screen. ***There are also security devices available made by companies such as Anchor Pad, Lucasey, and others that completely enclose the PC. These are devices such as lockdown pads, cables for monitors, and metal boxes. There are also devices that cover and lock the floppy and CD-ROM slots. ***Computer locks which bind your computer to a desk are good for discouraging theft. ***To protect your hard disk data, I would suggest investing in a removable media system that lets you "hot-swap" and lock hard disks. The hard disk could then be easily removed (with the *unique* key) and stored in a safe to prevent theft of data. Drives such as the Zip (100MB), Ditto (800MB), and Jaz (1GB) are removable as well, but do not lock. Make sure that you test the computer immediately after these lockdown devices are installed. In some instances the stress induced on the casing by the devices can cause certain parts to malfunction. ***You can buy devices that prevent the PC electrical cord from being unplugged or turned on without a key. ***Investing in a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) System is worth the cost. These protect against power fluxes which can damage your system. In the case of a power out (or if someone trips over the cord), UPS systems give you 5 minutes of rechargeable battery power to save work and perform an emergency shutdown. ***As one last measure of security, it's always nice to invest in some insurance for your computer. It won't get your data back, but it *will* give you some peace of mind. Software-Based Security ======================= Below is a list of measures you can take to secure your system using software/firmware based methods. They are listed in order of increasing security, so minimum security would be only implementing option #1, maximum security would be implementing #1-8. Keep in mind that implementing any of these without implementing every item below it leaves possible entry points open. 1. Set up a BIOS password for both the Setup screen *and* access to the system. a. Make sure the password is not easily guessable (i.e., birthdate, name backwards, etc. are easily guessed) See next section. b. Make sure that the password is the maximum possible number of characters supported by the BIOS. 2. Disable floppy booting from within the BIOS 3. Disable Bypass of startup files a. This is done by adding the line: SWITCHES=/F /N to the CONFIG.SYS file. b. Additionally, you might want to precede all statements in the Autoexec.bat with CTTY NUL, and then have CTTY CON as the last line. This prevents breaking out of autoexec.bat c. If you use DriveSpace compression, add the following line to your DRVSPACE.INI file: SWITCHES=/F /N d. Add the line: BREAK OFF This reduces the number of chances you have to break out of AUTOEXEC.BAT, all though it doesn't switch it off entirely 4. Set up a DOS-based Security TSR a. Make sure you cannot access the floppy drive without a password, and that it allows for write-protection. b. Make sure it allows for password protection. 5. Set up a Windows-Based Security program a. Make sure you can control which features of Windows you can limit or disable. b. Make sure it allows for password protection. 6. Instate Windows Security Policies using Policy Editor (Described Later) 7. Install an encrypted filesystem program. (i.e., CryptDisk) a. This will prevent access to the computer and files on the hard disk unless the password is entered. It will render your data unaccessible even if the hard disk is extracted from the system. 8. Delete the following DOS programs (or move them to a floppy): FORMAT DELTREE SUBST JOIN BACKUP RESTORE ATTRIB MODE Passwords ========= Passwords are generally the weakest link in the security chain. When choosing a password, remember these tips: Do NOT choose something obvious: Swear words, your birthdate, topics pertaining to what you do and/or your interests are are examples of BAD passwords. A Good Password is one that is totally random. To pick a password, try this: Grab a dictionary. Close your eyes, and flip to a random page. With your eyes still closed, put your finger on a random spot on this page. Remember the word, and do this again. Combine the two words, and append a three-digit number to the end. You also might want to intersperse non-alphanumeric characters into the password in random ways, such as an odd dash or apostrophe here and there. Also, NEVER write your password down. Always keep it in your head. A simple Post-It note on your monitor can bring down all the security that you so meticulously set up! A good password system hides the passwords from everyone, including the system administrators. This means that the sys admins cannot tell if the users are putting in weak passwords. One final note: When designing a security system, be sure to take the user into account. If a system is of such high-grade security that it is a nuisance to use, people will always find the lazy way to do it. (Post-it Notes...) ----------------------------------------------------------------